Dr Sugden
Good afternoon, sir. Let me ask you, was the Church of Pakistan aware of Tahir Ashrafi’s previous remarks praising Osama bin Laden and his article Defending the Blasphemy Laws?
Bishop Marshall
No, that is a long time ago. Ever since that time he has come alongside the Christian community and communities of other faiths. He’s done a tremendous work. He has really stood by us. When Jaranwala happened [ On August 16, 2023, an enraged mob attacked and set fire to over 20 churches and scores of Christian homes in Jaranwala, Punjab, Pakistan, following false allegations of blasphemy against two Christian residents Ed. ] he went with me. A second day we were there he took a big risk, supported us and openly took others. He remained there for several hours. He made successive trips and he spoke to the government. He has been amazing.
For the blasphemy laws, whenever we have approached him, he has gone with us to bring reconciliation or conciliation or to see that the cases are fairly heard, that people are not falsely accused of blasphemy. In fact, he has been instrumental in releasing many people before the mob can lynch them.
His services are so many, you know, and he has been very good to us. He also, by the way, met Justin Welby when he was here. He provided security for his trip, especially going to Peshawar when everybody said that Peshawar is not safe, and he said, “I take the responsibility”, and he did, through the army and through other channels. I was with them. But he was the one who provided the security against a lot of other people who were saying that he should not go to Peshawar. He also helped us in Islamabad and other places that we went. His services are many.
Dr Sugden
Has this put him at personal risk?
Bishop Marshall
I think the way he has gone for the minorities and especially for Christians, yes, many times people hated him for that, but he has openly declared that ‘I will, I want to serve communities like this’. He especially helped in the Rimsha case. There was a young girl with Down’s Syndrome who was accused of blasphemy. He went all out to protect her and to speak out on our behalf.
Dr Sugden
Why do you think he does this?
Bishop Marshall
I think it is due to his contact with Christians. Over the years he has seen the need to be in that position where he can contribute. He has made some very good friends with Christians who have also received him with open arms. He also wants to promote interreligious harmony in the country. The Government recognizes him for that. He is head of the official peace committee, started by the Government. The Prime Minister is also part of that.
Dr Sugden
Would you have expected Justin Welby to have said something about this situation before now?
Bishop Marshall
I don’t know, but he was very pleased. Just before Maulana Ashrafi received the award, Justin Welby received him in his home with his wife, his daughter and his son and I received a gracious message from Welby. He was very very grateful and very happy that Maulana Ashrafi came to see him and that he had received this award. Justin had had him over for dinner and they had a long conversation and he was very very pleased with that. Because in fact when Justin Welby was visiting Pakistan the conversation about nominating him was initiated and I supported it. And from that time on, I think the process started. Canterbury had the time and ought to have done due diligence if they wanted to or if they had questions. But right at the end, I mean, it was so unfair.
Dr Sugden
So do you think in light of what has come to light about what he said, had they done due diligence previously, then the award should not have been given?
Bishop Marshall
I wish they would have done that and they should have very quietly easily withdrawn it, no question. Nobody would have been upset but they obviously didn’t do it that way. They could not face the pressure.
This is so unfair because we know many Muslim clerics and leaders who are received in the West and who had a similar past. But that should not be made an excuse. People change, and he has definitely demonstrated deep respect for Christians which has to count for something! He has in many ways gone back on that and said that he no longer supports that position. His statement is clear as head of the Peace Committee.
Dr Sugden
And they did not consult you after the award was given or after they’d done the due diligence. They didn’t consult you before making the award or withdrawing it.
Bishop Marshall
They only tried to inform me after the decision was made: I pleaded with them not to go ahead [with the withdrawal] , they said “No, well, we are consulting”. In other words, they had made-up their mind by the time they consulted with me and they did not respond after that.
Dr Sugden
What’s been the effect of all this on Christians in Pakistan and their relations with Muslims?
Bishop Marshall
First of all, we’ve been deeply humiliated. For Maulana, people are saying ‘ see how the Christians have treated you’ and worse! And it’s very embarrassing for him and for his family, because the news is everywhere. And for us also. It will affect our relationships. He trusted Canterbury as a Church office and took his wife and daughter there. This is a highest offense against him and us!
We have lost confidence and standing as a a national or international community in our own country to our own members, friends and partners. Whenever we invite our interfaith partners this will have left a lingering and awkward pain. or other people. People will make reference to this again and again. I wish this had not happened.
It also will have grass roots impact. People will deal with the fall out in the every day.
Dr Sugden
So in a shame culture, this is very powerful.
Bishop Marshall
Absolutely, absolutely. But also in an interfaith environment of hard work in building relationships. Our relationships are based on responsibility and care. And I think it has strained our relationship with Lambeth also. The other bishops are also standing with me in condemning this irresponsible fall out
Dr Sugden
So your relationships with Canterbury and the Communion have been damaged as well.
Bishop Marshall
Absolutely – not the communion but Lambeth. There are many in the communion who must be appalled .
Can we trust Lambeth? Because if you invite somebody who is in the forefront of Christian-Muslim relations, interfaith relations, building up contact, speaking on our behalf almost every day and to the government or to the community circles, and you invite him or her, honour them, and then you take that honour away. Then you insult not only them but the millions they represent!
Dr Sugden
What should the Archbishop of Canterbury do now?
Speaker 2
She should apologize to the Church of Pakistan and to Maulana Ashrafi because it was not a proper way of doing due diligence or treating a scholar from another country. He is very well respected throughout the Middle East. He is the government’s representative like an ambassador to the Muslim countries. He’s not an ordinary cleric. This really will have a far-reaching effect on our relationships.
Dr Sugden
What will you be able to do to repair it?
Bishop Marshall.
I will go to him and say sorry. We will maintain and sustain our friendships and for us that means hard work. Many people held those sentiments, the whole world has moved on and we have to strive for change. And I mean, our culture and our perspective is totally different on these things.
Dr Sugden
So you will make a formal apology to him.
Bishop Marshall
I will, yes. I’ve already done that. But it will take time.
Dr Sugden
Have you met him?
Bishop Marshall
No, but we are planning to go along with the bishops and we’ll go and say sorry for what Lambeth has done.
We are adamant we are waiting for an apology
Dr Mulhally has acted naively and Lambeth have shown they do not understand the Middle East situation and the dynamics of our culture and Middle Eastern cultures. With God’s grace and prayers of the Body of Christ we will work toward setting this right and keep trying to live in a way that we include and embrace our neighbour.